Religious individuals delivering public services wishing to conscientiously object will be limited from doing so in all but the most extreme cases (e.g. doctors and abortion).
Local and national Remembrance Day/Sunday celebrations to be secular events, including the Cenotaph ceremony.
The British Isles have been the destination of migrants for millenia. Each new influx of migrants have brought new skills, languages and other cultural influences. Immigration has been unambiguously beneficial to this country, and continues to allow companies, organisations and communities to strengthen and improve by bringing in talents and viewpoints they otherwise lack.
@yellowgopher - about 9 years ago
I'd argue that there are plenty of secular remembrance day events that occur anyway...! I'm not sure of the law that states remembrance day has to be religious - but please correct me if I am wrong!
@andrewedmondson - about 9 years ago
The Cenotaph ceremony excludes non-religious. This was imposed by the government's consultation panel ... run by religious senior chaplains.
Local ceremonies are mainly religious. They are organised by the British Legion, local council and churches, or a combination of these. There is no law binding them to a religious ceremony but the religious vested interests impose their will on everyone. It is very unpopular.
On 14/04/2015 14:41, yellowgopher wrote:
I'd argue that there are plenty of secular remembrance day events that occur anyway...! I'm not sure of the law that states remembrance day has to be religious - but please correct me if I am wrong!
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/openpolitics/manifesto/pull/330#issuecomment-92847802.
@yellowgopher - about 9 years ago
I think we need proof that these services are not popular - our one gets a lot of people (both believers and non-believers). I believe the only person who has an absolute right to attend the Cenotaph service is the Queen. The rest are organised by precedence or local agreement/arrangement. So, on that basis, it doesn't HAVE to be religious but, if those organising it want it to be then... Now, if there are issues with those who arrange these services, then why do we not have many non-religious groups setting up their own services? I help organise a service in my village and we invite every and any group to be part of it but, more often than not, it is the churches and the local council that do the work. Everyone else just expects it to happen - and then complain when it doesn't go right!!!
@andrewedmondson - about 9 years ago
The point is that Remebrance ceremonies should be secular and not dominated by any particular religion or belief group.
Religious groups may wish to have their own additional services but they should not be imposed on others.
At Chichester, people leave in their droves after the wreath laying because they don't want to attend the very lengthy religious service.
I don't want the national anthem played either, as it mentions God.
On 14/04/2015 16:45, yellowgopher wrote:
I think we need proof that these services are not popular - our one gets a lot of people (both believers and non-believers). I believe the only person who has an absolute right to attend the Cenotaph service is the Queen. The rest are organised by precedence or local agreement/arrangement. So, on that basis, it doesn't HAVE to be religious but, if those organising it want it to be then... Now, if there are issues with those who arrange these services, then why do we not have many non-religious groups setting up their own services? I help organise a service in my village and we invite every and any group to be part of it but, more often than not, it is the churches and the local council that do the work. Everyone else just expects it to happen - and then complain when it doesn't go right!!!
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/openpolitics/manifesto/pull/330#issuecomment-92919507.
@andrewedmondson - about 9 years ago
That's not the point. It should be the responsibility of the local council to ensure that such an important ceremony be conducted inclusively.
I don't want to attend a Humanist ceremony. I did so at Chichester to make a point. I want to be included with everyone else.
On 14/04/2015 17:00, yellowgopher wrote:
So set up your own ceremonies!
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/openpolitics/manifesto/pull/330#issuecomment-92932715.
Andrew Edmondson
079 3450 8671 West Sussex Humanists http://www.westsussexhumanists.org.uk BHA logo http://www.humanism.org.uk/
@yellowgopher - about 9 years ago
You are welcome... I am fairly certain no one was there to turn you away! Councils can organise them now, and they do. Us church goers want to feel included too :-( Lol!
@andrewedmondson - about 9 years ago
You may be most welcoming but the truth is that many people are put off attending a religious ceremony. You won't be aware of them. A secular ceremony includes everyone.
On 14/04/2015 17:09, yellowgopher wrote:
You are welcome... I am fairly certain no one was there to turn you away! Councils can organise them now, and they do. Us church goers want to feel included too :-( Lol!
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/openpolitics/manifesto/pull/330#issuecomment-92937373.
Andrew Edmondson
079 3450 8671 West Sussex Humanists http://www.westsussexhumanists.org.uk BHA logo http://www.humanism.org.uk/
@yellowgopher - about 9 years ago
Where's the proof? I think people look beyond religion for remembrance services.
@andrewedmondson - about 9 years ago
Proof is not required. You know that many people are not religious and yet you are expecting them to attend a religious ceremony to commemorate a non-religious event.
The same argument applies to Council prayers. Every councillor may be religious and want to pray at the meeting. However, the meeting is for a secular purpose. How many potential councillors or members of the public are put off by this? I don't know. But even if none of them were, the principle is the same.
Separation of church and state applies to national and local government.
And as I said, local government should control important national ceremonies like Remembrance Day. It's part of social cohesion. Leave it up to the local church, British Legion or local councillors, and you get what we have now.
On 14/04/2015 17:17, yellowgopher wrote:
Where's the proof? I think people look beyond religion for remembrance services.
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/openpolitics/manifesto/pull/330#issuecomment-92945460.
Andrew Edmondson
079 3450 8671 West Sussex Humanists http://www.westsussexhumanists.org.uk BHA logo http://www.humanism.org.uk/
@philipjohn - about 9 years ago
👍
Remembrance ceremonies are largely dominated by Christian ceremonies and traditions, including religious observance. Just look at the religious leaders invited to attend the cenotaph.
@PaulJRobinson - about 9 years ago
I think there should be much more provision for secular Remembrance services, yes. 👍
I agree as well; any event that is organised by a branch of government should be secular (not necessarily atheist!) in nature. 👍
I will do a secondary PR to change some of the wording slightly to reflect that, but the principle is good.
The OpenPolitics Manifesto
@andrewedmondson - about 9 years ago